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Myths of the Early OSR 1: origins and anti-storytelling sentiment

I remain fascinated by the recent gaming movement called OSR, "Old-School Revival" or "Old-School Renaissance," which developed during the long period during which I was not playing role-playing games. This is another entry about it, the first of a short series.

A small amount of investigation reveals that it is a gaming movement with its roots earlier than I had initially guessed, in the year 2000, but it is not two decades old. It really took off as a "movement" in 2008.

Here I am writing about the early OSR, as it says in the title. By early I mean most of its life so far, up until the year 2018 or so. It is pretty clear that the OSR has finally split into mutually antipathetic cliques, embodied in different internet fora, and no single characterization will hold for all of them. The split was evidently a long time in coming, but for now it means that self-identified OSR participants will offer increasingly contradictory statements of what the movement means.

Economic roots in 2000

The OSR was possible only because of two factors that occurred in 2000. The first factor was the release of Third-Edition of D&D by Wizards of the Coast. This edition marked a break in mechanics and presentation od D&D from the earlier editions, and some players balked at this. The second factor was the Open Game License (OGL), which allowed creators to publish their own D&D content for earlier rule sets.

Granting license to publish to the people that wanted to keep playing D&D with older rule sets fostered a new community with boundaries set by older styles of D&D and its own economy of game products. As James Maliszewski, one of the formulators of the "old school" ideal, stated in a discussion on his Grognardia blog on 11 Jan 2009, "The OGL really did let the genie out of the bottle in a way no previous edition ever had. The explosion of the old school movement wouldn't have been possible without it." Notice that it's not yet "OSR." It's "old school movement," lower case.

The Old School Revival was an economic side-effect of two marketing decisions in the year 2000 by Wizards of the Coast intended to revive their ailing D&D property. It really worked, because when I stopped playing before these things happened, D&D was among the least popular games among the dozens of gamers I knew. I knew a lot of gamers, and not one of them played D&D in the '90s. I do recall meeting up with a group of players I had played with before, about the year 2001, when I was visiting home, and one of them was speaking with excitement about a new edition of D&D (the 3rd), but the rest of us had very low interest in it. Perhaps coincidentally, this one new D&D fan among us was distinctly the most politically conservative of the group.

Old-School became a "movement" and "renaissance" circa 2008

The OSR was increasingly characterized as a movement of reaction against the "modern," specifically at first "modern games," and a return to an imagined ideal original type.

The sense of a separate, exciting movement seems to have crystallized and spread in the year 2008. By that time, there were two new "retroclones" of early D&D rules. OSRIC, a rewrite of first-edition AD&D, came out in 2006, and Labyrinth Lord, a revision of the 1981 Basic Set by Moldvay, came out in 2007.

In 2008, Matt Finch, one of the co-authors of OSRIC, released his now-standard pamphlet "A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming." The same year, James Maliszewski began his highly influential Grognardia blog, the entries of which were a veritable manifesto for "old-school" role-playing games and praise of its virtues.

At the outset, these authors were promoting a way to play that was better and was original, and that contrasted with the "modern."

As Finch wrote in his "Quick Primer," "Playing an old-style game is very different from modern games where rules cover many specific situations."

The same year, Maliszewski wrote, "The truth is that old school play is not somehow underdeveloped or inchoate 'modern' gaming. Rather, it's a totally different perspective on what an RPG is and how it should be played. But most importantly it's fun."

Both authors, at about the same time, described a gap between the style of play between "old school" versus "modern" games.

A new fanzine entitled Fight On! A fanzine for the old-school renaissance appeared in Spring 2008, with a contribution by Maliszewski. Here we have the "old-school renaissance" in the earliest instance that I have found (and with the correct use of the hyphen when "old school" is an attribute).

Immediately, it was cool to be "old-school." It meant credibility and experience. Old-School gamers were veterans with knowledge. They knew better. Take, for example, the boast of The Hydra's Grotto (6 Oct 2008):

Sandbox is OLD SCHOOL. Really old school, if you thought you were old school, you probably were not if you sort of feel bad when a player character dies (DM or player).

[Note: This is funny because the term "sandbox" was imported from video games of the late '90s. Open-ended games had co-existed with linear adventures and hybrid types since the beginnings of the hobby.]

For a gamer like this one, you were old-school or you were not, in or out. There were already gatekeepers pointing out "old-school" posers like this in 2008. Think you are really old-school? Think again!

A forgotten early response to the new "old school"

The gaming blogger "The Alexandrian" commented on 9 March 2009 about what he saw as a spurious new "meme" that distinguished "old school" from "new school" gaming. This clearly indicates that the concept was new and that the Old School was not yet perceived as a genuine movement. It was just something bouncing around the internet.

In this entry, Alexandrian here demonstrates the degree of "complete, unmitigated bullshit" in the "rules not rulings" ethos of the "old school" as illustrated by Finch.

Like the idea that the sandbox setting was original, so the idea that GM fiat (DM rulings) was "original" is not entirely true. The Alexandrian was right about this.

Nevertheless, the Old School took shape through the careful selection of certain early features of role-playing games, while quietly omitting many others.

The OSR was a reaction to "modern gaming." What was modern gaming?

Implicitly, two types of modern games were rejected.

The first, and the original, target of "Old-School" gaming was D&D from its third edition onward. WotC was the culprit, as it had left old editions behind along with their treasured play practices. Awkwardly, WotC was also the source of prosperity for the OSR participants who benefited financially from a hitherto unprecedented policy of open licensing. OSR entrepreneurs bit the hand that fed them and that became part of the brand.

Simultaneously with the WotC's revival of D&D and the OGL, a group of game theorists at an internet forum called the Forge were offering analysis and sometimes heated arguments about how role-playing games worked and how they should work. These thinkers were antipathetic towards old forms of D&D, seeking to create ideally satisfying games in place of the old ones (like early D&D) that did not satisfy them.

The Forge theorists were experimenting with ideas that had been fostered and published by game designers who appeared on the scene in the late '80s and especially in the '90s. The ideas of these designers, evocative but very often half-baked, were intended to develop the rapport between role-playing games and storytelling, the latter understood in a romanticized way as an ancient, eternal, fundamentally wholesome and profound human art. Their experiments were intended to foster game mechanics that facilitated story-telling and a more mature and psychologically fulfilling kind of game. I do not know of any personal connections between the Forge internet thinkers and these '90s game designers, but one of the latter, Jonathan Tweet was the lead designer of the Third Edition of D&D. He had designed Over the Edge and Everway after co-designing Ars Magica, all experimental in their time and aimed explicitly at storytelling. The point here is that there was something in common between the Forge theorists and the emergent sentiment that games could be story-telling vehicles, on the one hand, and the new edition of D&D on the other.

The OSR developed in reaction to these two related trends: new, different forms of D&D and games explicitly aimed at "story-telling." That was "modern." The corrective was to get back to "games," not to allow "storytelling" pretenses.

As many will remember, the very popular Vampire game and its other modern occult super-powered monster spin-off games had a system its designers called the Storyteller system from 1991 onward, revised as the Storytelling system in 2004. This is the kind of thing OSR gamers had in mind when they said "We are not telling stories, we are playing games!"

Myth of the Early OSR #1: RPGs were not originally storytelling vehicles

As it took shape with the self-conscious feeling of a movement, OSR participants fostered several myths about their way of gaming. One of them was that the OSR represented the original play-style, and that play-style was a game. Role-playing games, especially D&D, were not storytelling.

The Fall 2008 issue of Fight On! (#3) began with a commemoration of Bob Bledsaw (1942-2008), including a quote from him that had appeared on a message board at Necromancer games in 2002. (This was one of the first companies to publish OGL products. Their slogan said, "Third Edition games, First edition feel.") The magazine cites this from Bledsaw along with his commemoration:

I never viewed myself as a storyteller to guide the gamers through a preconceived adventure. I tried to maintain the suspension of disbelief by permitting the gamers complete freedom of action.

This is easy to decode. Bledsaw didn't like the storyteller idea. He liked "sandboxes." Freedom of action means DM fiat rather than complex rules.

Bledsaw was a conservative gamer if there ever was one. He ran the only company to receive a license to produce products for D&D way back when Gygax was in charge of it, Judges Guild. This company had its own magazine, which ran from time to time, called Pegasus. The fourteenth issue came out after a fifteen-year hiatus in the summer of 1999, long before the "old school" was a thing, but Bledsaw printed his own editorial rant on page 5 against "storytelling games." His obvious targets were games like Ars Magica and Vampire. It is worth quoting a long passage of it.

Somewhere along the line, some people seem to have become ashamed of playing games. RPG rule sets began to deny their identity as games. They became Interactive Literature, Sagas,  Improvisational Drama. Game masters became Directors, Storytellers, and a dozen other euphemisms for a proud title. Players, no longer comfortable playing, were now Actors, Personae, and more. Anything, it seems, to disguise the fact that we grown-ups were playing a game. People might laugh!

The interesting thing is, of course, that nobody usually laughs at adults who watch other people playing games. Instead, they are supported and supplied by a multi-billion-dollar industry—professional sports. Why is it more respectable to watch someone else play a game than to do it yourself?

It's time to take back our games!

We don't have to be Storyguides or Actors, acting out roles in a Saga. We don't have to feel guilty that we are not analyzing our deepest psyches, expanding our inner selves, exploring alternative modes of thought, or whatever other buzzwords are hot this week. We don't need to stress about how much authenticity we're putting into our portrayal of a character who does not, and cannot, exist in reality. Never mind the theater, the psychodrama, the shared fiction. This stuff is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be entertaining. It's supposed to be stress-relieving, not stress-inducing.

I am no psychologist, but it sure sounds as if Bledsaw was made to feel extremely uncomfortable at the prospect of exploring his psyche through a game, or that his playing might have the effect of teaching him about himself. The argument overall is silly enough to need little comment. Bledsaw obviously had little idea about why game designers had adopted terms like storytelling and directing. I played games like that when they first came out, and nobody playing them was embarrassed to play games. Players I knew and I were excited by the possibilities of games that explicitly recognized the psychological potential of RPGs, but we were unimpressed by their (in)ability to realize that more than we already did without these new games.

What Bledsaw's words show, though, is that some aging role-playing game entrepreneurs were unhappy that the industry had left them behind. They wanted to take their games back from those who seemed to have taken them away.

Of course, nobody took games away from Bledsaw or anybody else. If he could not produce an issue of Pegasus for fifteen years, it was not the fault of White Wolf Games. Important here, though, is that this is the kind of attitude that fed the OSR. It was there already in 1999, resenting the popularity of other games and an influx of new players that came with it, including a bunch of women.

Actually, the earliest role-playing games were used as storytelling games.

As many have remarked, when D&D was released in 1974, it was introduced not as a role-playing game (the term would not be applied to the new game genre until 1976), but as a "fantastic medieval wargame" "playable with miniatures." Sometimes this observation elicits the remark that this proves it was intended as a game, not some kind of storytelling drama engine.

But it is well established that Gygax and Arneson both expected players to act out roles. They just did not have the vocabulary for it in 1974.

It is also well documented that the first big group of D&D players besides wargamers consisted of sci-fi and fantasy fans. These players, like Ken St. Andre, took the concept of D&D in new directions. They soon outnumbered the wargamers.

The testimony of early gamers is very clear if we just look for it, instead of relying on the selective memory of a Bledsaw or even a Maliszewski.

Let's look at what gamers were saying in 1977 just before J. Eric Holmes' Basic D&D set came out, when all players had was OD&D, Tunnels & Trolls, Empire of the Petal Throne, En Garde, and Metamorphosis Alpha.

Lewis Pulsipher is a game theorist and he has never ceased to have interesting things to say about games. In 1977, he provided the first of a series of articles to White Dwarf magazine on how to run D&D. In White Dwarf #1 (1977) he wrote,

D&D players can be divided into two groups, those who want to play the game as a game and those who want to play it as a fantasy novel, i.e. direct escapism through abandonment of oneself to the flow of  play as opposed to the gamer's indirect escapism

He goes on to say,

Gary Gygax has made it clear that D&D is a wargame, though the majority of players do not use it as such.

This is an extraordinary testimony. By Pulsipher's reckoning at the time, in 1977, most players were using D&D as a role-playing game and to tell stories like fantasy novels, not as a "game."

About the same time, in 1977, Bostonian DM Glen Blacow wrote in his Jagdmeister zine (#1, in the Lords of Chaos APA #3), an article called "A Note on the Philosophy of Dungeons." There he distinguished different kinds of DMs and dungeons. One of the distinctions he draws is relevant here:

There are "role-playing" vs. "skilled" games...

Blacow goes on to say that he considers D&D to be a game of skill, but he clearly recognized that a lot of people were playing D&D for the role-playing experience in 1977.

In his zine The Flaming Hourglass #2 (likewise in Lords of Chaos APA #3), Wayne Shaw wrote,

To explain why I run the game the way I do, it is necessary to look at the basic reasons. I play Dungeons and Dragons as an exercise in creative story telling, not, note, as a war game.

After the testimonies of Pulsipher and Blacow, this is not a surprise. You could not have a clearer testimony to OD&D as a creative storytelling game.

Dan Pierson was a DM who began playing D&D in San Francisco but had moved to Washington, DC. He wrote in his zine As the River Flows #1,

In particular I am sick… of dungeons in limbo. I want characters to exist and interact in a real environment 100% of the time. This continuous, played out existance [sic] is one of the two main points of my current project, Harshmel Ruins/Valley of the Maur.

This concept has been receiving a lot of verbal resistance and occasional threats of boycott from my local group of player/DM’s. Never the less I am forging ahead; both because I belive [sic] that this approach will produce a better game and because my limbo dungeon, Terrizon Arcades, usually bores me. If this experiment doesn’t work I will probably cease active DMing.

Here was a DM who was desperate to make story sense of his dungeon. He wanted a world with context and story, not just dungeon expeditions, which bored him.

The OD&D storytellers were numerous. Their existence in the 1970s is not convenient to this myth of the early OSR.

Dave Arneson was interviewed not long before his death in 2009 about what he thought was most important in games. Did Arneson say rules? A good DM? Rulings? No.

Question: "What is at the heart of a good game?"

Arneson: "As far as I am concerned it is the story. It can make or break a game quite easily."

Story and game have always coexisted. The idea sometimes offered that storytelling in role-playing games was not the original idea is as anti-old-school as it gets.

[More entries to come]

Comments

  1. To be fair to some of the various people you quote "against the Storytelling" have a point that is heavily defensible: it is a game. There are rules, outcomes, and so on. To me, it's a more codified and gamey version of playing toy soldier or something else. I'm biased on this because I played D&D a lot (2nd ed.), took a huge hiatus where I did tons of LARPs and the wargaming. And through wargaming, I asked myself "How can I have a campaign with characters that stays, level-up, etc.?" which, ironically, brought me back to D&D and OD&D before I even heard of the OSR.

    We could say that storytelling was always part of the game, and that's true: even wargaming and Chainmail was all about telling a story within the confine of major battles. That being said, I think using the right words for the right thing is important: I have absolutely no fun doing free improv storytelling at my table, or playing very abstracted "theatre"-influenced game like FATE and such. And it's not because I'm a grognard, because I'm much younger than D&D. I just see there is a very distinct aim in an OD&D campaign and a FATE game, and I don't think it's purely subjective. I don't know if any of this makes sense, or is clear enough to convey anything?

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    1. David, thank you for your remarks! I completely agree. It is a game. And yet there are two points to be made. The testimony of some thoughtful players of OD&D, before the first basic set, was that maybe "most" of the players were not playing it primarily as a game. At least a large number of people were using it as a storytelling tool. They said so and they thought it was interesting enough to publish words about that.

      Now, we could go back in time and argue with them and say, "No, it's really a game and you'd have to admit that." But I'm interested in how people described what they were doing.

      I'm also interested in the myth propagated by the idea that there is an "old-school" way to play that was this way and not that way. Basically, "old-time" gaming was demonstrably more diverse in its play-styles than OSR proponents would like it to have been.

      Note that nobody in this entry is saying how you *should* have fun (except maybe Bledsaw). People have preferences, and it's very interesting that a debate about "game vs storytelling" existed already, explicitly, in the times when it was basically just OD&D.

      The myth I'm addressing here is that "old-school" gaming was understood as gaming, not as storytelling. You and I can agree that, well, it was a game, really--even though it's more complex than that.

      But that's not how they described it. They said some people like to use it as a game, some people for storytelling. I'd be willing to bet that when Arneson and Megarry first demonstrated Blackmoor to Gary and Ernie Gygax and Rob and Terry Kuntz in Lake Geneva in November of 1972, they all came away with different concepts of what just happened.

      There was no original way.

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  2. I think it's important to note that, unless you're actively trying to *stamp out* any hint of storytelling, pretty much any persistent campaign will inevitably grow a story. If you take a bunch of human beings and let them inhabit a fantastical world and take on the personas of these fantastical characters for long enough, they'll inevitably become drawn in, start to express interests, desires, aspirations, etc... and something resembling a narrative will arise.

    I think this kind of emergent storytelling is both impossible and undesirable to scrub from games.

    This should probably be differentiated from the intentional, structured storytelling that's the goal of a lot of "new-school" D&D and the storygames subculture. In this style, the construction of a cohesive narrative the *intent* of the game, to be brought about either by GM intervention or by mechanics baked into the rule-set. This kind of thing is what OSR people are often (unnecessarily, in my opinion) heated about.

    As an aside: I'm not trying to dunk on the structured, narrative-first style of gameplay. It's a perfectly valid way to play. I don't really enjoy the style very much, but I don't begrudge others' right to enjoy it.

    I *do* think, however, that many gamers (the me of several years ago included) are under-served by the normative expectation in a lot of the modern scene that all play will ultimately be in service of a narrative. Speaking personally, this kind of expectation lead to me running some games that were very un-fun for both myself (as GM) and for my players. OSR style gameplay isn't for everyone, but I think it does fill a very valuable niche.

    As another aside: I know you said you were mostly fascinated by the OSR scene, but I think you might get a slightly different impression if you spent some time checking out 5e communities and storygame communities and the like.

    The 5e internet community is one of the most stultifying TTRPG circles I've ever personally witnessed--for a crowd of people who have mostly only ever played TTRPG in their lives, you'd be surprised how many of them feel extremely confident in their ability to declare that certain things "don't belong in D&D."

    (As a quick experiment: go on any D&D subreddit and bring up 4th edition. See how many people shit-talk it. Then ask all those people if they've ever actually played 4th edition. The results will be edifying.)

    Storygame folks are generally pretty OK, but some of them have the inverse attitude of the one you charged OSR gamers with in your post: they view storytelling as both divorced from the act of gaming and an objectively superior form of entertainment, and they have a very hard time imagining that anyone could *ever* choose to prioritize gameplay over narrative. It's, I think, an equally silly perspective--games are fun, people like games, let people enjoy games the way they want to instead of trying to convince them what they *really* want is a story instead.

    In summation: the OSR elitism is childish and petty, but it's also a manifestation of the fact that the TTRPG community as a whole is childish and petty when it comes to people Playing Games The Wrong Way TM. This isn't some unique failing of the OSR crowd--it's just another frontier in the forever-war of TTRPG nerds being obnoxious to each other on the internet.

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    1. Hi, Josie! I understand what you are saying and I agree about emergent story. That's how it starts: you play continuing characters, and continuation itself means that a bigger story develops. But some players play *for that story* more than anything else. Others play for other kicks, such as besting foes or power-ups. Etc.

      There's no denying preferences, and strong preferences, among gamers. And each of us is entitled to preferences.

      I haven't spent any time at all with 5e players online. What you say about their bad-mouthing older iterations of D&D is interesting. It's also not surprising. Frankly, I'm not that motivated to get to know such players because I am not actively interested in 5e, unless my son is playing it, and I steer him towards the styles of play I enjoyed of old. By contrast, I am interested in Old Games, so I gravitate to OSR. But then there's that whole "OSR" thing about it... Alas for "Fantasy Role-Playing Games."

      I like your characterization of the issue of preferences as a forever-war. Part of what I am dredging up is that this goes back twenty years before most people were on the internet. People were blaming Gygax and Gygax was blaming them back already in '76.

      Certainly, the OSR crowd has no monopoly on being obnoxious nerds, as you put it. But the OSR crowd does have a monopoly on the claim to be a revival of the Original Way. It is quite a peculiar thing. As a virtual time-traveler from the Olden Days, I'm immediately drawn to stuff that claims to be Old, but then I find out it's a caricature of those days. Not that it's bad. Things are... different. Divided as never before.

      The reverse claim, that Story Games are all new, is also problematic, but of another variety.

      You said it yourself before: I'm obsessed with the past! More "Myths of the Early Old School" will be treated as time allows. Take care, friend!

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    2. Hm. I think that it's maybe very silly to believe that there exists some mythical Original Way that lends *your* particular style of game some cachet (you, the generic gamer I am referring to, not you, Lich Van Winkle).

      I like these games because, independently of how Gygax & Arneson & all the rest played their home campaigns back in the 70s and 80s, the ruleset & material seem to lend themselves to a style of play I find desirable. Their old-ness or new-ness has nothing to do with it, really.

      I suppose, though, that there's one actual virtue that I'd ascribe to these games that is actually a function of them being old, which is that the outdated art styles, low production values, and general rules jankiness which is the result of them being the idiosyncratic personal productions of small teams of enthusiasts gives them an overall grimy charm I find very irresistible.

      Even if 3LBB OD&D is objectively an incoherent mess, I still find flipping through the pages and marveling at how thoroughly un-polished it is to be a welcome counterpoint to the incredibly sanitized, sleek, made-by-committee nature of WotC-era D&D.

      That being said, this is, like, a superficial fondness I have for the aesthetic, not an evaluation of the actual value of the games (I love the *aesthetic* of Chainmail & OD&D but I sure as hell don't want to play either of those games unless someone else does the work of cleaning and formatting the rules into a manageable state for me).

      As for my points about 5e D&D, my goal wasn't necessarily to convince you to be interested in 5e or storygames, but rather to maybe provide some context for why a lot of OSR folks behave the way they do on the internet.

      Of course there's some sneering and patronizing elitism for having discovered the Cool Indie Thing while all the 5e crowds Wallow in Corporate Mediocrity, but also the 5e community (which is practically the *entire* TTRPG community, seeing as 5e has something like 90% of the market share) is legitimately one that is prone to bizarre purism and orthodoxy, which I think fuels some of the frustrated tone with which "old-school" gamers tend to talk about "new-school" games.

      It's not just that they bad-mouth other editions or styles of play, it's that they often seem to believe that other styles of play are somehow inimical to the very idea of roleplaying games, despite a total lack of personal familiarity with those styles of play. Presumably this is fed by the massive cottage industry of people who have *also* only ever played by-the-books 5e writing massive dissertations about how to be a "Good DM" that are consumed by thousands of people in large D&D communities like the ones on Reddit.

      (imagine my surprise when I spent some time on some 5e boards reading some of these dissertations and found out that, actually, sandbox games are impossible to run, dungeons that aren't just linear 5-room gauntlets are impossible to run, it's impossible for your players to become attached to their characters in high-lethality games, you cannot have a sci-fi D&D game, and including puzzles in your games that aren't solved by an Intelligence check is terrible DMing since only intelligent characters should be able to solve complicated puzzles)

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    3. It's probably impossible to know, but I'd be curious about how much of D&D 5e sales translate into actually playing. If it is a new cool commodity recognized by a larger mass audience, and a corresponding rupture in live transmission of play-styles, then there must be a large degree of purchasing without playing. You know, so one's new friends can see it on your bookshelf. These are just guesses.

      Where does one go to find these 5e discussions? Also, I looked for the OSR Discord thing you mentioned once and I can't find it.

      About my own interest, I'd characterize it as role-playing games. I may feel disappointed to find role-playing gamers divided, and do not want to join some stupid category... but, who knows? maybe it just means that there are so many players that they can now afford to split up into named cliques. Maybe it's a side-effect of something good for the hobby: growth.

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    4. "It's probably impossible to know, but I'd be curious about how much of D&D 5e sales translate into actually playing."
      Probably more than any other game, because you have to find a group willing to play, and 5E is the lingua franca.
      Any other game, you pretty much have to persuade a pre-existing gaming group (or assemble a group out of people who have played D&D) to Try This Other RPG.

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    5. I don’t know if you’re still looking for these things, but as far as I know, most discussion by 5E players is on Reddit: reddit.com/r/DnDNext, reddit.com/r/DnDBehindtheScreen, reddit.com/r/mattcolville.

      (This last subreddit belongs to Matt Colville, a YouTuber who made a name for himself with a series on running 5E. He and his followers have their own set of assumptions which are interesting to analyze... His attitude is that the role of the Dungeon Master is to “create drama,” but at the same time he insists that what brings players to the table is not storytelling, but combat.)

      The OSR Discord is accessible via this link (you have to install the Discord program on your computer or mobile device first): https://discord.gg/6vqF25E

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    6. Thank you, Tim. That's useful.

      About the Dungeon Master's purpose, it's funny to see the same debates going on in recent times that were going on in the mid-'70s.

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  3. I'd always thought the modern gaming didn't mean the Forge so much as the intro of 4E.
    D&D 4E came out August 2007
    OSR went big in 2008
    I don't think the timing is a coincidence.

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    1. Good point! Maliszewski also said that he began the Grognardia blog partly motivated by Gygax's death.

      But I still think that "storytelling" priorities, and the antipathy to them, are a "post-Forge" concern.

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    2. Do NOT underestimate the release of 4th edition as a milestone.
      The OGL and OSRIC existed during 3rd edition, pretty much every TTRPG out there put out an OGL d20 edition.
      But D&D is the market leader, the gateway game. When TTRPGs are doing well, D&D is doing well.
      During the 2000-08 era, I'm comfortable saying that most tables were playing 3rd edition D&D.
      .
      Then WOTC brings out 4th edition, which was a big change, and the 4th edition marketing alienated a lot of 3rd edition players. Word-of-mouth was terrible.
      The OGL allowed PAizo to pick up the 3rd edition banner. A *lot* of D&D players never migrated to 4th edition, playing 3rd or Pathfinder until 5th edition came out.
      .
      The rebellion against 4th edition opened possibilities, however. If our gaming was not governed by TSR or WOTC as the One True Source, if we were to be old grognards playing an "obsolete edition", why stop at 2000?
      .
      An vague analogy would be the Protestant Reformation. Once Paizo/Luther broke the legitimacy or authority of TSR/WOTC to define anything, there was no such source. So a plethora of heresies bloomed.
      .
      "OSR-style" doesn't have to be historically accurate to serve the purposes it serves for its fans. (Never mind the obvious incongruity of creating an orthodoxy out of a group of innovators.)

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    3. TLDR: The failure of 4th edition broke the implied authority of the D&D corporate brand to define D&D.
      (That authority was always implied, and many tables did what they damn well pleased from the beginning. But TSR and WOTC held the position of defining orthodoxy.)

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    4. Yeah, Ruprecht also pointed out that 4th edition was the landmark that spurred reaction in 2008. Good point!

      Nevertheless, the retroclones started earlier, during the reign of 3e. That is the period when the phrase "old-school" first appears applied to games, too. I was focused here on the roots. I admit I'm pretty ignorant about what distinguishes editions 2, 3, 3.5, 4... Never played 'em! Frankly, after looking them over, they all look like the same old game to me with more and more different bells and whistles and styles of art and slightly different emphases. (My point of reference is... all those other RPGs.) I did figure out by now that Pathfinder picked up the people who felt shaken off by 4e.

      You are certainly right that OSR-style can mean a lot of things. That's why I started by saying that it's come to mean different things to different people, but I would look at the "early OSR," circa 2008.

      I agree that "OSR" serves different purposes, too. But I think you have to admit that if you call something "Old-School," there is a claim embedded there that it is an older and original way of doing things. New OSR players pick that up instantly. The name gives an impression of what it's supposed to be about. That is exactly how the founders of the OSR put it: a return to how it used to be.

      Josie has told me that this does not matter, because OSR has new meanings, and that is fine. People can call it whatever they want! :)

      I don't think that innovation and orthodoxy are incongruous. Every heresy can create an orthodoxy. Many heresies begin as new orthodoxies. You mentioned the protestant churches, for example: orthodoxies. And there's no shortage of discussions about "what's *really* Old-School, and what's *not*." Gatekeeping like this involves attempts to give a fixed meaning to a movement of novelties.

      Your discussion is about versions of D&D, whereas a huge number of gamers have been playing lots of other games that have little to do with D&D.

      Well, thank you for your pointers, especially about 4e being the thing that pushed people over away from TSR. That does fall right at the time I was discussing.

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    5. 2nd edition isn't very different from 1st, in my opinion. "Satanic panic" inspired scrubbing of half-orcs, assassins, barbarians, demons-and-devils. All of which crept back in through supplements over the '90s. (Bards get a top-to-bottom rewrite, Illusionists get demoted to just a flavor of wizard.)
      .
      3rd edition (including 3.5, Pathfinder) introduces feats, a granular skill system, and level-by-level multiclassing.
      .
      4th edition, I don't know enough to really say. Fans say it's a brilliant tactical combat engine. The designers set a goal of carefully balancing the classes against each other, and probably did so at the expense of all the classes feeling kind of the same. For me, it's a game where the mechanics completely overwhelm any storytelling or immersion. The resource mechanic was "At-Will/Encounter/Daily/Utility" powers. I could never get past the lack of "fluff" for that. (Ironically, in my system now, all spells are "Exhausted" for one minute after casting, so everything is an Encounter power.)
      .
      5th edition marked a retreat halfway back to 3rd edition, with different resource mechanics for different classes, and Feats playing a big role.
      .
      Joseph Manolo ("Against the Wicked City") once wrote "Pathfinder has a Mesmerist class, and like most Pathfinder classes it's enormously fiddly and overcomplicated, full of abilities that let you do one thing to allow someone else to do another thing which, in turn, gives you a bonus to a third thing when someone does something else."
      .
      This is not a bad description of a lot of 3rd, 4th and 5th edition. 3rd edition did that with little-to-no concern for "game balance", so basically spellcasters were better than noncasters. 4th edition rigorously balanced all of it, basically by making everybody a spellcaster without calling their abilities spells. 5th edition strikes a middle ground which has been commercially successful, but irritates those of us who lust for some kind of consistency.

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    6. That's really helpful!

      I realize that these differences are big to players devoted to D&D. I'm guessing that there is a lot of little variations between these editions that you just listed. To me, it's all still D&D in every edition: character classes and races, hit dice, hit points per level, armor avoids hits, Vancian magic, clerics, alignments, saving throws, rudimentary skill system, mostly static core stats that affect the odds little, and other features like those.

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    7. This is true. I've never played 4th, which was widely criticized as "not feeling like D&D", but you're right about the consistency of those core mechanics from OD&D to 5th edition.
      Compared to GURPS or West End Games Star Wars or FASERIP Marvel Superheroes or Fate or Shadowrun or Vampire, it's all D&D.

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  4. I don't know about that. A narrative emerging from the events at the table is as old as RPGs and is a good thing IMO. What a lot of OSR people are reacting against is not "story emerging from game" but rather "story as straitjacket". If I want a passive form of entertainment, where I observe the narrative but cannot influence it, there are plenty of ways to get that (books, movies, TV, etc.). RPGs are exceptional in that I can influence events, often in a major way. An RPG where I can't do that, where the outcome is predetermined, is odious to me.

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  5. "OSR entrepreneurs bit the hand that fed them"

    That sounds a little too harsh :P The whole idea behind the OGL was to allow third-party products (which there were a gajillion). If anything, it describes Paizo, who took over production for the Dragon and Dungeon magazines and later (because of ambiguities regarding 4E licensing) developed their own version of 3.5 (i.e. Pathfinder), filling in a hole in the market left by WotC.

    The gamers behind BFRPG and OSRIC weren't really served by WotC products at that point anyway. It was probably only Necromancer Games, another beneficiary of the OGL producing good-quality third-party products, who produced content what the grognards liked (or the very least something close enough). And maybe Troll Lord Games, but they developed their own in-house game (Castles & Crusades) to do so.

    As for Bledsaw, I'm not going to argue that he felt left behind (he probably did, because he probably was), but there might be one more thing at play here. Not sure about the US, but here in Hungary the dominant playstyle was "deep characterisation" which entailed long-long backstories and lots of PC-NPC (and later PC-PC) interaction (in-character, of course, because you played it wrong if you didn't say the exact words your character uttered). Dungeon crawling, character classes, silly monsters, etc. were things to make fun of, not sources of sincere enjoyment. People were real smug about it.

    My problem with statements like "there is no story" or "story is the most important thing" is that I'm not always sure they mean the same thing by "story".

    In my case, I am absolutely positive that the story we experience as participants is the most important thing in RPGs - some events we nostalgically but precisely recall even after 10-15 years (in a way, it's a bonding experience). However, it's not like I "plan" any story. On the contrary, it all emerges because of how my decisions for the NPCs, the players' decisions for their PCs, and the die rolls dictated by the rules interplay. Sometimes it produces stuff like in the movies or good books. Other times it's super weird and almost incoherent. I often make the comparison that it's like a day's or lifetime's experience. Some of it, when looking back at it, makes a good story arc, while some parts will make no sense and feel random. And that's just the way I like it.

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    1. Well, you know my perspective. I missed the whole period that you are taking the time to describe to me.

      It may sound harsh to say that OSR designers bit the hand that fed them (WotC) but it is true that the same people who condemn WotC and its products are happy to accept a license from them to make money freely from their own D&D work. I think it is good that way--certainly better than Gygax's way, to shut down competitors and belittle variants--but it seems ungracious of OSR designers to trash-talk the company that feeds them both opportunities and new players, and acknowledges that the hobby belongs to players. It was so much worse before, in the actual old days, when TSR kept D&D on a leash. The OGL is the best thing to happen to D&D since 1974. When I stopped gaming, I really D&D would fade out. Now it's more popular than ever.

      I have no issue with how people get their stories, emergent or otherwise. I like your style and I like other styles. Mostly, I'm just describing what people said.

      You make it sounds as if players who wanted dungeon adventures were really despised by the smug, cool people. But what happens when the tables turn and smug, cool OSR players, triumphant in the market, mock players who can't get their dungeon procedures perfect or don't provide a sandy enough sandbox or random enough monsters?

      Maybe my culture shock experience comes partly from seeing how gamers have turned against each other. Gamers have been bullying other gamers like I never saw before. The internet will mess things up.

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  6. It seems to me that many in the early OSR crowd were worried about DM's using their player characters to tell a story, whereas the story gamers saw RPGs as an excercise in storytelling between players and the DM.

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    1. It seems so. But I argue that this is a false distinction. OSR gamers tell stories and storygamers play games. The distinction between different styles was drawn by 1976, two years after the release of D&D. Play styles varied from the advent of role-playing games, so no style of play is "old-school."

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