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Are OSR authors against kids playing their games?

When the OSR is criticized on any grounds, the one consistent response is, “Yes, there have been problem people, but the OSR is just so creative!” I am not sure that it’s more creative than other gaming movements (and let’s leave aside how weird it is that there are gaming movements), but I do admire many of the products of OSR designers.

When buying RPG products, I prefer to support independent game designers, authors, and artists. I’m turned off by the glossy and superheroic styles of D&D as it has developed in the hands of the Wizards of the Coast. As my kids have discovered the fun of role-playing, I would like to support independent creators by buying their products and distributing them to the younger generation. I want independent creators to succeed. That seems to put me in harmony with OSR designers. 

But it seems that every time I pick up an OSR setting or an adventure to give to my kids, for their use, I find something that’s not suitable for a father to give to his kids.

 What’s the matter, OSR designers? Don’t you want kids to play your games? Do you want them all to grow up playing 5e exclusively and investing in Wizards of the Coast, ignoring your products? What you’re publishing is a barrier, not an on-ramp, for younger newbies.

 You would think that “Old-School” gamers would want to recruit a new generation of players among youngsters ages 10 and up for their style of play. Instead, with edgy content and a dose of smut, they cater to the fantasies of adult males like them, as if they are actively trying to keep kids and families away.

Let me explain what I’m talking about. 

When kids were invited to the table 

Not long ago I commented on the frequency of amateur drawings of topless women in the earliest role-playing games. I mentioned (and one commentator agreed) that this kind of content was dropped when D&D Basic sets were published to broaden the audience to new, younger players. That effort worked. I was one of the many, many kids who got into D&D and role-playing games when, from 1981, it was aimed at players 10 years old and up. The appropriate age for players was emblazoned on the box, inviting young newcomers. The earlier Basic set, by Holmes (1977), was marketed to kids 12 years old and up, still pretty young. Those years, from the late '70s to the early '80s, saw the first big boom of role-playing game fandom. It is the period idealized by the “Old-School” retro-aesthetic role-playing game movement. No wonder. We were hooked young. 

Most of the early D&D modules are also relatively free of edgy or smutty content that parents would not want to gift to their kids. (That wasn’t the case for alternatives like the solo adventures for Tunnels & Trolls, but that had a small player base.) 

OSR designers today idealize excellent old-time adventures like B2 Keep on the Borderlands (1979) and B10 Night’s Dark Terror (1986). You won’t find stuff in there that one would not give to a young player. Why, then, are the new-style “Old-School” games, modules, and settings so often explicitly laced with fantasy prostitutes and sexual slavery?

Kids in middle school (10 to 13 years old) who are discovering a hobby of shared imagined adventure don’t want “kiddie” content. They don’t want to be talked down to with stuff that is obviously for kids. They crave taking risks, discovery, exploring abilities, and the same kinds of exciting roleplaying experiences of wonder and discovery that older players want. They enjoy the vicarious thrill of being in charge of their own momentous decisions and having the freedom to make choices as an adult, without a guardian. They like to get into character. I know this because two of my players are these kinds of kids, and their friends who play with them are the same.

This is not about prudishness. 

Before I left gaming for a few decades, I used to argue that we are strangely inconsistent when we allow games to include gory violence but feel squeamish about sex in fantasy. I still think that, to a point. But having kids of my own and being responsible for them taught me something I had not considered when I was young.

I now see the reverse of that argument. My kids are not likely to participate in cartoonish violence in their real lives. They’ll never meet monsters or arm themselves with magical swords. Imagining that is so unrealistic that it remains dreamlike. Also, they have already been introduced to the fantasy of fighting the forces of evil much earlier in life.

One day, though, they’ll have sex, something less familiar to them from media. As pre-pubescent tweens, their earliest idea of sex should not, in my view, be based on hooker barmaids in fantasy taverns or slave girls. That fantasy is much less cartoonish. It’s a real possibility in a way that fantasy combat or magic is not. That makes it different. Dragon-slaying and troll-hunting don’t exist. Sexual slavery and prostitution do. 

I don’t worry if I introduce my kids to cartoonish violence, because this is not an introduction to real violence any more than super-hero movies are. They are not going to pick up axes and chop up monsters in dungeons. I do have concerns about introducing my son and daughter, who are edging up towards puberty, to the idea that you spend spare money on sex. And how much worse would it be to receive such a fantastic introduction to imagining prostitutes while role-playing with your dad? I hope my kids have sex one day with people they love and who love them. Sex in OSR products is seldom, if ever, about love.

If you are a gamer without kids, imagine that your dad had introduced you to gaming and then presented you with prostitutes as an option for spending your gold. Is that a game you want to play with anybody in your immediate family?

If you were a pre-pubescent kid, would it be right for your DM to introduce sexual content into the fantasy you are playing? How would you feel about that?

Let’s say you are with me this far. Maybe you still don’t believe me about the supplements. Let’s take a look at some specifics.

The strumpets of the Barrowmaze 

I would not have bought Barrowmaze Complete if I knew about this very minor aspect of the book, because I intended it as a gift for my middle-school son. I looked about on the internet to see what independent fantasy adventures with 5e rules got several strong, positive reviews. The Barrowmaze checked off all the boxes and I bought it. In the end, I couldn’t make it a gift.

In the Barrowmaze scenario, the base town for the adventurers has one tavern, intended as a sort of adventurer base, called The Brazen Strumpet, featuring barmaids described as buxom, beautiful, and having “feminine build.” Pretty girls, not a problem. Sexy girls, okay. Sexy girls underneath a sign emblazoned with the words “Brazen Strumpet,” though? My precocious daughter, an avid reader, is old enough to know what a strumpet (prostitute) is, and neither of my kids’ characters would want to be based at a place named for one. I just renamed it on the spot as The Bronze Trumpet. Likewise, the Random Dungeon Graffiti chart for the Barrowmaze once gave us the result “I screwed the barmaid at The Brazen Strumpet.” Of course, I fudged the dice and came up with a different result rather than read that out to my pre-teen daughter when her character peered at the chalk scratches on one dungeon wall. There’s also a magical compass in the dungeon that guides one to one’s innermost heart’s desire. If you roll a 3-4 on 1d6, it guides you “to the nearest whorehouse.” That could make for back-slapping yucks for guys huddled around the table, but I can’t imagine the characters of my wife or children appreciating this. And what is a kid to make of this upon reading it?

These aren’t prominent features of the book, and if these are your kicks, do enjoy them. You may ask what the problem is. I can just edit it out in play. But I initially bought the Barrowmaze, after seeing reviews of it, to give it to my son so that he might run a “classic-style” megadungeon in the 5e campaign he runs. These little features were, though, enough to keep me from giving the Barrowmaze book to him at all, as I had intended. Even if I felt comfortable giving that to my boy, I don’t need his friends’ parents asking me about their kids’ encounters with strumpets in the tavern or the gambling house matron named Pernicious Ticklebottom or the whorehouse compass. Again, my Basic D&D book by Moldvay says “ages 10 and up.” When I was in college, I definitely participated in games that were 18+, but 10+ is how I play these days. That’s “old-school.” 

So why does the Barrowmaze include jokes about prostitutes and implicitly encourage the player characters to resort to them? It is not much of the book, but it is also completely unnecessary to put it in writing and explicit in the publication. I can easily edit that stuff out as Referee, but I can’t give the book to my kids. 

And if you include stuff like that, for crying out loud, say so on the back cover or in a blurb somewhere! There is just no excuse for this because I literally wouldn’t have bought the Barrowmaze if I knew this was there—not because of prudishness, but because I play role-playing games with younger players and I am looking for anything that (1) is exemplary and (2) I can play as-is. Once I start putting significant work into a published adventure or a setting, I might as well just write my own as I usually do. A quick edit of these features would have made the book fine for young players. 

Other examples

I’ve been running the Barrowmaze as Referee on my own, instead of gifting it to the kids. I run it suitably tweaked to make it my own setting. But I have continued to look for new adventures with settings that I think will inspire my son, an aspiring DM.

I turned to the innovative Yoon-Suin, whose author is one smart fellow. Nope. There’s the brothel madam who gets more powerful every time a patron climaxes, monsters filled with the need for sexual conquest, a cult leader with devoted “sex slaves,” and plenty more.

I stumbled on a cool-looking book called The Evils of Illmire and hoped to find a copy. Luckily, before I did, a review pointed out that this setting, too, features implicit sexual slavery.

Scanning Old School Essentials, which is so beautifully presented and based on the B/X games which were written for players 10+, I got excited about the forthcoming OSE setting, Dolmenwood, by the same lead author. But no. The author recently stated that “Generally speaking, Dolmenwood is definitely an adult setting, with drugs, horror, and sexual elements. As such, it will be marketed with a content warning.” 

At least this one will be labeled for its content, a basic courtesy for potential buyers.

I could go on, but if you know the OSR scene, you probably already know what I’m talking about.

My question is: why? 

I’m truly all in favor of players enjoying sexual fantasies, but do you have to hard-wire it into every lovingly designed OSR setting? If you think you did excellent, creative work, and you want to share it, why actively exclude kids?

Another example. My son is interested in the films Alien and Aliens, so I looked into the indie sci-fi game Mothership. It looks cool, but then I hit the “random patch” table, in lieu of a D&D trinkets table. Characters may roll up a patch for their uniform that says things like “Bend Over Here It Comes,” “Drink/Fight/Fuck,” and “The Louder You Scream the Faster I Come.” Etc.

Har har. I understand the genre. It’s “gritty,” with its space marines and teamsters. But this is not a game I can give to my son to play with his friends. It’s just not. All that was required to open this to younger players was to omit that unnecessary content or substitute something else in that has attitude. Maybe some of you think that it’s just not the same without it. Fine. Just know you are shutting young new players out.

How you OSR designers can help bring kids into the hobby

Many, many OSR products are written specifically for a sexually mature audience, but they rarely say so. My impression is that these are creative people without families of their own, so they do not think about new players and families that play together. They shut kids out from OSR gaming by making themselves off-limits to kids. This was the mistake TSR made in the '70s. When they fixed it, the hobby boomed. Don’t repeat the same mistake just to prove you’re grown-ups now.

Leaving out edgy content should be entirely easy to do. Just. Leave. It. Out. Any player group who want edgy or smutty content can introduce it into a game with ease. But if your game product relies on such content, and it depends on that to be “creative,” then maybe you need to think about what you are selling. If it can’t stand on its own without that stuff, what is it? If it can stand on its own without it, why keep it?

OSR game and adventure designers, please… cut it out! And label it. The old-time modules you idealize had very little of this kind of content, and that helped the hobby to grow and sustain itself. You give potential buyers like me a choice between the saccharine and often unusable mediocrity of WotC publications and “cool” indie game books about dungeons and prostitutes.

Don’t get me wrong. I like smut in its place. Just don’t make it mandatory for the people who buy your stuff by printing it that way. I’m not going to buy it, because I play with my family, and I’m not alone.

The retro-fascination of the OSR movement proved that early experiences are formative when it comes to later tastes, so I think it matters in the long term what kids play now. You should want young players to grow up playing your game with their friends, not hiding it under their mattress, or never seeing it at all.

Again, this is not against sexual fantasies. I am all for that. This is about including new, young players, the future of the hobby, and facilitating play among family groups.

Comments

  1. Everyone's kids are different. Honestly, if I ran Barrowmaze for my daughters, aged 12 and 14, they'd get a kick out of going into The Brazen Strumpet or having a magic item guide their characters to a whorehouse. Then again, they were raised on a steady diet of mom's television diet of crime procedurals and RuPaul's Drag Race, so they wouldn't find sex work odd. And as someone who was a D&D player in junior high, we included all kinds of that content; immature sex talk is just normal for kids that age.

    More generally, however, I'm in agreement with the idea that extraneous details should be left out of adventures, especially those marketed as drag-and-drop into a campaign. This isn't out of a sense of marketing to kids, but about being more universal—if it isn't important to the adventure, then the GM can make up his/her own name for the tavern. It's less to read, for starters, and less stuff for a GM to change to put in his/her own game world.

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    1. Yes, different kids and different families are different. I don't judge, but I respect that.

      And there is a big difference between 11 and 14.

      But I'm glad that we agree that stuff that excludes new players is best left out.

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  2. Everyone's kids are different. Honestly, if I ran Barrowmaze for my daughters, aged 12 and 14, they'd get a kick out of going into The Brazen Strumpet or having a magic item guide their characters to a whorehouse. Then again, they were raised on a steady diet of mom's television diet of crime procedurals and RuPaul's Drag Race, so they wouldn't find sex work odd. And as someone who was a D&D player in junior high, we included all kinds of that content; immature sex talk is just normal for kids that age.

    More generally, however, I'm in agreement with the idea that extraneous details should be left out of adventures, especially those marketed as drag-and-drop into a campaign. This isn't out of a sense of marketing to kids, but about being more universal—if it isn't important to the adventure, then the GM can make up his/her own name for the tavern. It's less to read, for starters, and less stuff for a GM to change to put in his/her own game world.

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  3. I think I read my first copy of Vampire: the Masquerade at 13 (borrowed from a classmate whose older sister was dating a "satanist" (really just an angsty goth kid) - it was his copy). But yeah, a year or two makes a huge difference. And we didn't really play VtM until secondary school, I think - we only played D&D 3rd edition (and a little Shadowrun here and there) until then. Never played with adults until I became one, though.

    Even though I'm not playing with kids, I totally understand where you're coming from. There certainly is a shortage of material that is non-edgy, non-childish, and better than average at the same time.

    Now I'm curious. I'm gonna check my collection of OSR stuff to see which might be an age-appropriate gift or reading material.

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  4. I have a teenaged daughter and son so I share your concerns about the inclusion of sexual material in OSR products. But I also have the same issue with the casual depiction of graphic violence and gore not only by the OSR but by WotC as well. At the very least, I expect all publishers to post a notice on their products indicating the age rating and ideally to explain the rating, e.g. drugs, language, suicide, etc. like we see in other media. That way parents have the choice of what to allow or not allow for the kids based on their knowledge and/or belief of what is okay for their kids. By not labelling, parents have to carefully review a product first. It is precisely for this reason that I only let my son and daughter play BECMI D&D.

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    1. Thanks for chiming in, Grymlorde. I suppose that age ratings would vary a lot by family, as illustrated by the three different takes of Charles (above), you, and me. Charles, for example, has daughters who may take bawdy content in stride; mine aren't mature enough yet nor would it feel appropriate between parents and kids at our table. My kids don't blink at fantasy gore and the undead, but my extended family has been plagued with suicide, and that would be a distinctly not-fun issue for my kids to happen upon in an escapist imagination game. By contrast, I think that some other playing groups could deal with suicide content in a distanced way, due to different experiences.

      Game designers can't predict these differences and should not have to please everybody, so I agree with you that some warnings would help. I don't think we need a complex rating system, just some kind of flags for those of us who look after younglings. I think we will probably agree that stigmatizing game books with warning labels is not the goal, but helping parents to get their kids into gaming--rather than just steering them away entirely--is our intention.

      I'm glad to know I'm not alone in this.

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  5. I am curious, how many articles do you estimate you will need to convert all the OSR into playing Forge games as this is your clear intent?

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    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_role-playing_game#The_Forge

      Is this what you mean by Forge games? I have never played a single one of those. They were all published in a long period during which I had no contact with RPGs. If you think that I am promoting "Story Games," I request that you read this entry of mine:

      https://lichvanwinkle.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-spurious-novelty-of-story-game.html

      Likewise, I'm not a fan of the achievements of the Forge. For example, a bit of this:

      https://lichvanwinkle.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-time-before-sandboxes-and-railroads.html

      Since you asked, in sarcastic and oblique way, about my intent, I repeat what I have written all along: People should play as they wish to play. That said, I think that gamer sectarianism is silly and harmful to the hobby. The folks who promote their games on the basis of an imaginary version of gaming history are doing a disservice to anybody who cares, especially to new players who get roped into gamer sectarianism. Some veterans of these struggles seem to feel they must pick a gamer alignment or faction, but it just isn't so.

      It's not clear to me why you should think that this post, of all my posts, is about trying to "convert" OSR players to something else, when it's actually about making it easier to increase the number of young people who adopt OSR play styles and use independent game designers' products. I don't think any card-carrying OSR gamer has to choose between blocking out new young gamer kids on the one hand or Forge games on the other. I wouldn't give Ron Edwards' Sorcerer game to my kids, either, even if I thought they'd like it.

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    2. I look not at this single example but at the bulk of your posts as being aimed at what is essentially ideological revisionism. You are here to topple the commonly understood ideas of what the OSR is through a variety of articles, some decrying common features of oldschool play, and some, like this one rather more puzzling. I observe also a general lack of gameable material beyond common sense house-rules, hence my skepticism r.e. your presence.

      The interesting part of your story game article is that you devote a lengthy diatribe to defending a position, not of Storygame superiority, but rather that the division is arbitrary and that the elements attributed to Storygames, which you supposedly have not heard of because you were absent during that time, should in fact be attributed to oldschool games. The question then becomes, why is this question tackled so early on in your blogging?

      You garner yourself under the banner of inclusion but any positive statement regarding the nature of gaming must per definition exclude some subset or other. There is nothing wrong with differentiating one style of play from another, appealing to specific markets is how new products come about in the first place.

      I cannot imagine the person who writes this silly article about the OSR:
      https://lichvanwinkle.blogspot.com/2020/08/the-many-deaths-of-osr.html

      would simultaneously be trying to get more young kids into it. Your points make rudimentary sense on a post by post basis but the whole doesn't add up. I smell a rat, and spot a dagger held in the sleeve of your open hand. I don't think you will succeed.

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    3. Prince of Nothing, first let me say that I hope you are not unwell. Are you suffering from isolation in the midst of this pandemic? I am sorry if you are feeling stressed.

      Okay, about the many issues you have raised, you get many answers, because, why not take your allegations about my hobby blog seriously?

      It is not clear that you understand what is normally meant by ideological revisionism. Normally, historians (of which I am one in my day job) use it to refer to the changing of facts to suit one’s self-serving narrative of history. As I see it, the idea of the Old-School Renaissance is founded on poorly apprehended and idealized history. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad way to play, just that its premise is false (as it is also unnecessary). The premise of the OSR can be called “ideological revisionism,” if you like, because it changes and omits facts. So, if you are saying that many of my posts take aim at ideological revisionism, you are right in the sense that I criticize the ideological revisionism underlying the OSR. You may notice that I cite primary sources make an argument, and I also use my own eyewitness testimony here and there. What I am doing is the opposite of ideological revisionism, because I am adding facts, not omitting them, to correct mistaken notions about the past. That is one thing that historians do. Usually, though, serious historians do not use the charge of “revisionism,” which is made mostly by conservatives who do not like fresh historical studies that challenge the notions that they hold dear for their own ideological reasons. That motive may apply to you, but I don’t pretend to read your mind (as you do mine).

      Note again that what I say about the myths of the OSR is not to say that it is a bad way to play. I repeatedly state that people should play as they wish. It is interesting to see how many OSR gamers can’t distinguish between their own play style and the pretexts that were used to justify it, the foundation myth. In colloquial terms, you might say I’m suggesting that OSR gamers just play their games and drop the “old-school” bullshit. I do agree that terms to distinguish play styles are useful, but the idea that this one is the Original Way is false. Meanwhile, if I don’t think that the old D&D language rules make sense, for example, that doesn’t mean I think you are having bad fun. I hope you are not taking these posts personally. It’s not inconsistent for me to voice my own preferences, as I do sometimes in this blog. If I don’t like the way hit points work in D&D, that doesn’t mean I’m a secret agent of Ron Edwards.

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    4. You fault me for not presenting more gameable material. That has never been my intention, but I’m sure you can find other blogs more to your liking that do. Anyway, if I did, it wouldn’t be D&D stuff, so there’s a good chance you would rather ignore it, as D&D gamers do. I don’t fault you for your tastes. I’d like to try my hand at publishing gaming stuff, but most of my creative energy goes right now into publishing for my day job, not for my hobby.

      I also write more philosophically about limitations on our ability to imagine and share fantasy and some other things. I know it’s probably boring to you, but in my defense, nobody is forcing you to read it.

      You imply something suspicious about my article on the nonsense about Story Games. I just can’t see what’s suspicious about it. I had just found out what Story Games were supposed to be; I found it to be a silly category; I found that both Story Games and OSR games are mixed up categories. I had no idea then how much more nonsense I’d learn about the OSR subsequently, and how much more interesting the OSR would turn out to be for the history of RPGs. I don’t know why it’s strange that I should deal with that early in my blogging days. If Story Game players claimed to have the Original Way to play or “objectively superior,” then I’d probably take that on. Instead, they claim to be non-“trad,” which is also false but is less interesting.

      You say that “any positive statement regarding the nature of gaming must per definition exclude some subset or other.” I’m not sure that is a coherent statement, but if you are justifying excluding gamers of some kind, well, that’s your choice. I recommend including more players of more varieties, and you are free to do otherwise. I repeat: you should play however you want.

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    5. The article on “the many deaths of the OSR” is perhaps silly to you, but it was interesting for me to see how the debate about the “death of the OSR” has carried on for eight years. Most of the post simply documents, with links, a long-term conversation among others. I did not write that stuff myself. I didn’t say the OSR is dead, but I pointed out how many people have said it. I don’t know if you noticed, but the reasons given for the “death of the OSR” changed over time, as well as the idea of what OSR has meant. For example, the “death of the OSR” once referred to commercialization; later it had to do with mean people accused of real-world crimes or who write nasty remarks about other bloggers, or who leave inexplicably hostile, accusatory comments on blogs. Have you ever experienced that aspect of the OSR? A lot of people have complained about it.

      I think there’s no inconsistency in my criticizing the myths of the OSR while making a plea to creative people involved in the OSR to make some products that don’t treat young players like babies and simultaneously don’t entail sexual roleplay. Asking for certain kinds of products is not much different than statements in reviews of gaming products about what is good fun and bad fun, good presentation and bad presentation. A lot of people write reviews on their blogs. People express their preferences on their blogs.

      If you don’t understand my point of view, you could always just ask about my intention instead of accusing me of some kind of cloak-and-dagger deception. Do you really think that my silly little blog could ever “topple” the OSR? It’s hardly my intention. I’m just writing stuff I think about. I don’t have a gamer alignment or a faction, but you are free to imagine that I’m part of a nefarious plot to... to... to do what? To make you stop having fun? It’s flattering that you attribute such influence to my blog, but I don’t think there are that many readers, to be honest, and of those who read it, who cares?

      As always, I am grateful for other points of view. I do find it strange for someone to come and tell me that my point of view isn’t what I actually think, but hey, you are at liberty to think it’s all a preconceived devious plot to force you to play My Life with Master with members of a category of people you don’t like. If you think that, though, as a friendly tip, I suggest you get out more, seriously.

      I sincerely wish you well and happy gaming, and I bear you no ill will.

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    6. Prince of Nothing ranted too much about Zak in the YDIS days; too much that he ended as boring and pedant as him, with this "trauma" of "storygamers"

      I mean, Venger is known by his weird persona, but he was much, much more reasonable in his comment.

      Prince, if you're reading this: stop becoming Alexis

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    7. I don't like *not* publishing people's comments, but I do hope that nobody will bring their fights here from elsewhere. On the other hand, it is interesting to see fights and negativity among OSR gamers, especially when it breaks out in connection with my stating the fact that there are fights and negativity in the OSR. The junior anthropologist in me never ceases to be amazed. I do hope you folks have enough fun actually playing games to make the stress of expressing yourselves antagonistically about your hobby worthwhile.

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  6. I gather Goodman Games is now selling hardcovers of old TSR classics (Keep on the Borderlands, Lost City, Isle of Dread, etc.) converted to 5e. But you might want to re-read them before giving them to a kid, to make sure they are as innocent as you recall.

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  7. While I understand your desire to keep things PG, the vast majority of independent OSR publishers are creating content they'd like to play themselves.

    Marketing to pre-teen gamers makes business sense to you (how many 11-year old DMs are out there?), but would kill the primordial drive from whence all that OSR content came.

    My niche is adult RPG material. I'm sure there's sanitized kiddie scenarios just waiting for you to buy. Isn't there a search option on DriveThru for that?

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    1. What you say makes sense: creative people design what they want to play. That makes especially good sense when we are looking at independent creators who are not thinking of a bigger market, because self-expression is the goal, not market.

      Yet I think there are more aspiring 11-year-old DMs than we might guess, or there *would* be if we were more actually "old-school" in our approach. There were a lot of them in the '80s. I was one, once upon a time.

      I'm all for people making adult material. I'd say there's a need for it. I certainly don't want everything to be sanitized. I hated the Reagan era as a youth and the "Moral Majority," and I reacted against it strongly. You keep doing what you do best and what inspires you.

      Yet it probably bears repeating that I can't run sex games for my family, and I know there are lots of families who play role-playing games. Things don't have to be boring and mediocre (WotC) or even innocent to be for kids. My kids expect to go on adventures where they'll risk their characters, get into fights, negotiate with weirdos, leap into the unknown, see scary stuff, quite possibly die (we've had TPKs), and more. It doesn't need to be PG. If you watch the stuff today that's rated PG, it's almost always for single-digit kids who can't make complex role-playing decisions about threats because they're not cognitively there yet. There used to be a middle ground. That goes, in a way, for all media, not just RPGs.

      The materials available now do make it hard to bring younger players into the play-styles that we call today OSR. There has to be a way to do it without choosing between either hookers and sex slaves or ice cream sundaes with magical sprinkles on top at the end of the adventure.

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    2. I was an 11 year old DM once. I've run games for my own kids, and still of a few more years before my youngest leaves the pre-teen category.

      I've looked at a few products supposedly aimed at kids and they have been universally pretty poor. Writing well for kids is a different skill from writing well for adults; frankly I have trouble creating content for my own kids. There are now enough old gamers now who are the parents of new gamers that I expect anyone who made a name for themselves in producing good child friendly content could do well. But the big hits in children's literature are few and far between, so I'm not holding my breath that there will be a decent kids' module anytime soon.

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    3. Beoric, it *is* hard to write for kids. My idea is that one doesn't need to write specifically for kids, but just to write cool adventures that would appeal to anybody, leaving out the few things that adults would not play with kids. My kids, and other kids I know, are immediately turned off by patronizing stuff that declares, "Hey, kids, this is just for you tykes!"

      Anybody can insert foul language, sexual stuff, or whatever into a game at will, so why print it that way? Anybody can run an X-rated Keep on the Borderlands but the game doesn't need to prove it in print.

      There are parents who just say their kids should never play role-playing games. Some of these creative authors are in line with those parents by publishing stuff kids can't ever use.

      Anyway, Beoric, thanks for letting me know you're in a similar situation.

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  8. I think you're really one to something here with

    "if your game product relies on such content, and it depends on that to be “creative,” then maybe you need to think about what you are selling. If it can’t stand on its own without that stuff, what is it? If it can stand on its own without it, why keep it?"

    I think a sizeable portion of the OSR content that I see has focused on gimmicks. I think the ease of entry to creating OSR content allows many amateur authors to proliferate their content, and I think an easy way for many authors to stand out among their peers is to focus on the gimmick rather than the content itself. Further any content people make has to compete with other ways one could spend time such as film or videogames, and I think it's important to note that many of those have gotten "edgier" as well. I think many who produce OSR content have been raised on film and videogames, rather than the TSR writers who were raised on books, and it's a reflection of the other media of our time.

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    1. Lungfungus, thanks for stopping by. I am sure you are right that the changing media context is to a great extent what has made everything different.

      As for OSR gimmicks, I'd like to defend them, but I have this weird relationship with OSR content: it emulates the stuff I knew as a kid, so it attracts me powerfully, but it's reflected on a distorting mirror of imagined recollections that exaggerates some features grotesquely while completely omitting others that I thought were essential.

      I wonder what it will be like when today's OSR gamers are old, in 2050, and young new gamers come along and say to them, "Look, guys! We're reviving the OSR now!" And they put on OSR costumes and claim they have recovered how it actually was back in 2010, the right way to play. And the OSR geezers will ask from their rocking chairs, "What are you talking about? That's a parody of our original OSR!"

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  9. I'm glad to read this kind of reflections. I'm not a parent myself, but a teacher who loves to make RPGs workshops for kids ages 11 and up.

    Once I prepared a game of Stars Without Number, and I had to edit the character creation procedure, because one of the random background was "Courtesan" (a nice word for prostitution). I'm sure NO GIRL EVER would want to play such character.

    On the other hand, I'm writing a OD&D/Knave inspired game for teens, localized for Latin America, where there is no OSR per se, because "old school" never existed here. My goal is to make it cool enough without being "for kids", with a Zelda-like aesthetics.

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    1. Seguramente, I have known a few girls who enjoyed roles like that of courtesan, but yes, I imagine that few children will undertake such a role.

      You make an interesting point about OSR. The character of the OSR in other countries must be conditioned by stereotypes about US-American culture. If there was no "old school" where you live, then the meaning of OSR must be different.

      I wish you luck with your game development!

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  10. Seguramente, your comment turned up, years later, now that I'm preparing a Worlds Without Number game for my young niece and nephew, because I was searching for ideas on what to substitute for the Courtesan background 😂. At first I was thinking 'jester,' and now I'm thinking 'nurse,' but it's tricky! Feel free to share whatever solution you landed on if you see this 😁.

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    1. I suggest Performer or Swindler, depending on the aspect you want to preserve.

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