tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post1205981068098338225..comments2024-03-28T06:46:47.044-07:00Comments on Tom Van Winkle's Return to Gaming: What Makes Generic Fantasy Generic?Tom Van Winklehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-40023915076993532032020-06-26T14:47:41.776-07:002020-06-26T14:47:41.776-07:00Sure, it's understandable.
We spend an entire...Sure, it's understandable.<br /><br />We spend an entire year on ancient history, but it's chiefly Greek and Roman history, because of the shared European culture - we barely learn anything about Chinese or American history (aside from points where they intersect with European history, of course).Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-77957436579188893172020-06-26T13:50:52.740-07:002020-06-26T13:50:52.740-07:00I have a correction to the text above. Dave Arneso...I have a correction to the text above. Dave Arneson did earn a university degree.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-50704401994489571132020-06-26T13:22:59.692-07:002020-06-26T13:22:59.692-07:00Ynas, the United States had no medieval period.
O...Ynas, the United States had no medieval period.<br /><br />Of course, this is an abysmal excuse for not teaching about the Middle Ages. (I teach this kind of thing myself in my job, so I do not need to be convinced that it is important.)<br /><br />I imagine that in Hungary, teaching the medieval period is felt by education planners to be a civic necessity for building a sense of a shared past and nationhood.<br /><br />In the USA, the Middle Ages is merely an interesting background for learning about the Magna Carta and then the age of European exploration leading Europeans to the Americas. These are elements of history used for building a sense of nationhood here.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-642853323970221552020-06-26T11:06:31.245-07:002020-06-26T11:06:31.245-07:00A week? Here, our entire 10th grade History is abo...A week? Here, our entire 10th grade History is about the medieval period!Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-35645551168746131482020-05-21T07:24:47.098-07:002020-05-21T07:24:47.098-07:00There's still a few hold-outs for portraying t...There's still a few hold-outs for portraying the romantics' middle ages. Chivalry & Sorcery and Pendragon come to mind, though neither is terribly widespread. Dragon Warriors had some leanings in that direction too. These are all pretty old, though.<br /><br />Romance of the Perilous Land is the only new RPG that I can think of, but romantic sensibilities positively suffuse the work.Alea iactanda esthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17951704235056042923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-72674480562685369472020-05-20T15:48:23.836-07:002020-05-20T15:48:23.836-07:00JC, I fully agree! I skimped on discussion of the ...JC, I fully agree! I skimped on discussion of the nineteenth-century romantic idea of the Middle Ages in referring to "effortlessly shared, premodern, romantic fantasy." There are plenty of books on the invention of the Middle Ages (such as Cantor's now-dated The Invention of the Middle Ages).<br /><br />I do think that the Romantics' Middle Ages is no longer quite directly relevant to gamers, as it has been mediated by the likes of Tolkien and other generic fantasy. D&D may be the main point of diffusion now for ideas of the "medieval."<br /><br />You make a good point about Tolkien's work having been mediated in turn, by artists, as eurofantasy, whereas perhaps Tolkien imagined it somewhat differently.<br /><br />I like your comparison of 5e with Mos Eisley depleted of wonder, as well. As you can tell, we are quite in agreement there.<br /><br />I'm sure that classic D&Disms are somewhat effective for newcomers. (That was the point of departure for what I wrote: "If you have never experienced it before, what is generic for others can be fun for you. Your first of anything can be a thrill.") In fact, if it were not for my own kids, I'd not be thinking about D&D much at all! The only reason I'm playing it is that my kids never met a wraith, much less an orc, before. I get a vicarious kick out of seeing their interaction with the first instances of things. Then again, my boy has nearly memorized the Monster Manual after a month of study, so I can hardly surprise him from that angle. But for now, he's enjoying being able to guess (accurately) anything he might meet for the first time.<br /><br />My son is running a 5e game for some of his friends. They were attacked by some Shadows, but none of the players knows much about D&D. They didn't know what the Shadows were, and it sounds, from his report, that the effect was magical. The kids playing came up with their own name for them. That's how I would like it to be: fresh.<br /><br />You sum up well what I was harping about: non-generic settings are a lot more work. My question is about how generic got that way. I can't solve that entirely, but surely it comes down to shared references. I expect that the generic would change along with the changing shared references, except that D&D itself is now the main shared reference. This is the influence cycle to which you also refer.<br /><br />Thank you for chiming in! If I had anybody with whom to talk about these things, I wouldn't be writing it.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-47064509481779251812020-05-20T14:25:39.301-07:002020-05-20T14:25:39.301-07:00I'd say that the bedrock of "generic fant...I'd say that the bedrock of "generic fantasy" is the Romantics' vision of the Middle Ages - as channelled through Gothic and historical romances, and then through Tennyson, William Morris, the Pre-Raphaelites, etc. That gives us knights, castles and wizards - along with other supernatural and monstrous elements - and establishes a sort of timeless pseudo-medieval setting. It's the Western equivalent to China's jianghu (the pseudo-historical setting of the wuxia genre).<br /><br />That, rather than Middle Earth, is the dominant strand of "eurofantasy" informing D&D, I reckon, which is why its knights resemble those of King Arthur more than the Goths/Rohirrim. And I'd say that interpretations of Tolkien's work (illustrations, films, etc.) are dominated by the older "eurofantasy" rather than what he actually wrote - which is why we see so many depictions of Tolkien's characters in armour that evokes far later periods than the Bayeux tapestry.<br /><br />Gygax and Arneson mash that older generic fantasy up with all sorts of pulp fiction, which gives us D&D in all its gonzo glory: wizards! knights! slimes! robots! And of course there's a layer of Tolkien on top. But not a very deep layer, I think: even D&D's orcs are more like sword-and-sorcery henchthings than Tolkien's clever, cruel soldiers. <br /><br />But then, as D&D becomes a commercial success, that spiky mish-mash becomes a bland puree. And with your Tieflings and Dragonborn and what have you, the current versions of the game seem imply a kind of Mos Eisley without the sense of wonder - because you know precisely what every one of those strange beings is. <br /><br />I agree with what you say on the influence cycle. But I think you might be undervaluing the impact that classic D&Disms can have on players who haven't encountered them before. My kids have been playing RPGs in earnest for at least three or four years (and played fantasy skirmish games before that). But until a few weeks ago, they'd never come across a level-draining wight (nor had I, though I knew of them). And it caused genuine terror along with a PC death. So I'd say that these things work - and work well because of their game mechanics as much as anything else. <br /><br />And in a *game*, that can be just as much fun as something with an enthralling in-universe tale. I mean, Glorantha's trolls, broo and dragonewts are brilliantly thought-out monsters. I'd much rather *read* about them than a D&D wight. But I'm pretty sure that the wight will get my players quaking more for the foreseeable future.<br /><br /> I think Arneson was right on Tekumel. I'd love to run EPT. But it recalls the main problem I had running Runequest as a kid: the problem of other players *not quite getting it*. That’s something you don’t have with mashed-up generic fantasy, however lamentable it is as a literary genre. Non-generic settings are superior, but they’re a lot more work!<br />JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-50467391180989743372020-05-20T10:55:13.159-07:002020-05-20T10:55:13.159-07:00I know what you are saying.
The difference is evi...I know what you are saying.<br /><br />The difference is evident between B/X D&D modules written in the US and the UK. (I'm American, but I have always preferred the modules distributed here from the UK).<br /><br />I'll write more later about the Eurofantasy. Americans and Europeans necessarily relate to it differently.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-13552975812724978782020-05-20T10:42:09.499-07:002020-05-20T10:42:09.499-07:00I have often lamented the Dungeons&Dragons-ifi...I have often lamented the Dungeons&Dragons-ification of fantasy.<br /><br />I have noticed a marked difference in euro-fantasy settings written by europeans vs. the american ones. They are superficially quite similar, but where Americans have the middle ages as distant cultural history, it's a lot closer for europeans. As a kid living in upstate NY, I studied the middle ages for less than a week in school (our social studies book rushed through the dark & middle ages to get to the age of exploration so we could do Columbus). In Europe it's still present, especially the later medieval and renaissance stuff but even earlier things. My wife didn't just learn about the Normans in school, she went to a school in a building some Normans had actually built. <br /><br />The difference seems to come across in the RPG settings. When I first got my hands on a copy of Das schwarze Auge, it really struck me how the description of the setting said that "the most important empires on the contenent are at a stage of developent that resembles the earthly late middle ages or the early renaissance, but there are ample differences to the european model" because of both fantasy elements and the nearness of other cultures. Book printing and optics are called out expressly as features of the setting, whereas it is pointed out that firearms are notable lacking (and that armour is thus enjoying an advantage over weaponry).Alea iactanda esthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17951704235056042923noreply@blogger.com