tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post1033331896605126013..comments2024-03-28T06:46:47.044-07:00Comments on Tom Van Winkle's Return to Gaming: The Genealogy of Advantage and Disadvantage in RPG MechanicsTom Van Winklehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-38465710311467009252021-10-05T16:36:44.902-07:002021-10-05T16:36:44.902-07:00Thanks! That looks like it was in 2006.Thanks! That looks like it was in 2006.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-65333549659398720892021-10-04T04:54:54.098-07:002021-10-04T04:54:54.098-07:00This is a very interesting topic. Please allow me ...This is a very interesting topic. Please allow me to contribute by raising another point that might be of interest.<br /><br />The oldest instance of rolling 2d20's and keeping the best result was one of the maneuvers added in the Tome of Battle in the tail end of 3.5. Namely the Shadow Blade technique. <br /><br />"As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack against an opponent. Unlike on a normal attack, you roll 2d20 and select which of the two die results to use. If you use the higher die result, resolve your attack as normal. (Your mystic double misses, but your true attack might hit.) If you use the lower die result, or if both die results are the same, your attack deals an extra 1d6 points of cold damage as both the mystic double’s attack and your true weapon strike home."Kozoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03641324845202856383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-84794386105553805302021-09-21T17:23:19.877-07:002021-09-21T17:23:19.877-07:00I think you are right that the "drop a die&qu...I think you are right that the "drop a die" either for better or for worse antedates RPGs.<br /><br />Space 1889, now there's a game I haven't though of in a long time. One of the many for me in the category of "owned it, never got to run it, gave it away long ago." I can't remember anything about the dice rules in that game, but it sounds like it fits right between Ghostbusters and Shadowrun.<br /><br />Thank you!Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-89074934783952301042021-09-21T14:59:31.539-07:002021-09-21T14:59:31.539-07:00Also, I am reminded that the Space 1889 (released ...Also, I am reminded that the <i>Space 1889</i> (released 1988) RPG used a dice pool mechanic that involved either taking the highest roll, taking the number of dice that met or beat a target number, or taking the total of the dice pool, depending on the specific sort of situation. There was an additional mechanic of just rolling one die and trying to hit a target number, but that's not really relevant to this timeline of development.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-9638180006803814072021-09-21T14:50:57.292-07:002021-09-21T14:50:57.292-07:00I think that Over the Edge took its inspiration fr...I think that <i>Over the Edge</i> took its inspiration from the AD&D procedure. If you're right about its place in the history of developing that mechanic, then I am certain that it does go back to the AD&D procedure, and from there to whatever inspired Gygax to write about it. I suspect that "roll 2 dice and take the higher/lower" can be found in some set of wargaming rules in the '60s or '70s, probably the latter as that would explain why a similar but not the same mechanic shows up at the same time in two different games.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-75643953909580781542021-09-21T11:27:43.221-07:002021-09-21T11:27:43.221-07:00I think a lot of the independent and creative amat...I think a lot of the independent and creative amateur new games have starting packages. Some of them now have tables and one rolls for some random gear at the start instead of browsing the generic shopping list.<br /><br />It reminds me of the original Warhammer FRP, which, unless memory fails me, included such gear according to profession. That's how it works in my home rules, too (speaking of amateur).<br /><br />I think some old D&D modules included starting equipment kits. I agree with you that it's a great idea.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-81779559128379389862021-09-21T08:20:31.376-07:002021-09-21T08:20:31.376-07:00Yes, that's a good spot on the shield bash - a...Yes, that's a good spot on the shield bash - and the rules are modelling a very similar situation too, though the dice are used in a kind of mirror-image way (defender rolling vs attacker rolling). <br /><br />The marginal RPG practice that deserves to become popular, I think, is Into the Odd's use of small "starting packages" for adventurers (e.g. "pistol, grease, hand drill, drum"). At a stroke, that cuts away a swathe of 3d6 x 10gp tedium in character creation *and* fuels the sort of in-game Heath Robinson invention on which the best RPGs thrive.JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-2682796263239406212021-09-21T06:33:37.636-07:002021-09-21T06:33:37.636-07:00I like all your points about Blood Bowl (which I d...I like all your points about Blood Bowl (which I didn't play) and Space Hulk (which I owned and played). I hadn't considered those. (Those games were not nearly as popular in the US as in the UK, I think.)<br /><br />Take a look again at the TFT Melee Shield Bash rule and the Blood Bowl blocking and blitzing rule. They both vary number of dice depending on relative Strength stat of those in the collision. Interesting!<br /><br />I'm not sure if I'd consider genestealers' higher dice pool in melee as "advantage" in the same sense (beyond the literal sense), but I agree that the line is a blurry one. The difference between getting an extra die, with the requirement that any one die rolls a "success," and the 5e Advantage/Disadvantage system, is pretty much a matter of perspective. That's why I think of the 5e system as an offshoot of dice pool mechanics.<br /><br />You definitely have added to the main point here. The hobby field of gaming has different compartments that overlap, and practices that seem marginal or idiosyncratic can become mainstream in time, especially when they are integrated into the most popular games.<br /><br />I wonder what marginal practices of today will be integrated into the most popular games of the future.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-31430356872325424342021-09-21T06:02:54.087-07:002021-09-21T06:02:54.087-07:00You're right about Steve Jackson and T&T. ...You're right about Steve Jackson and T&T. Jackson is credited with developing *Monsters! Monsters!*, the T&T variant of 1976 in which players play the bad guys. Danforth illustrated that. I assume these folks go way back together, at least to those days. Danforth's illustrations are (in my view) the only good ones in the re-release of TFT.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-36833313077155286512021-09-21T05:51:59.115-07:002021-09-21T05:51:59.115-07:00Thank you for this contribution! I had Magic Realm...Thank you for this contribution! I had Magic Realm (a very unusual board game at the time, I think). I don't remember that specific dice rule, as it was an exceedingly complex game with lots of bits interacting. All those different chits and cards and that big book of rules...!<br /><br />About stat generation, yes, I am aware of that D&D option to roll 4d6 and drop the lowest to generate stats. That isn't the same as resolution of actions, but you are right that dropping a die was a known (and sometimes debated) mode of character generation. I still think that 5e's Advantage/Disadvantage system owes more to the dice pool idea in wide circulation than to these indisputable early antecedents for the concept of dropping a die.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-69914238449781957042021-09-21T04:16:55.461-07:002021-09-21T04:16:55.461-07:00And - sorry! - one further point on Space Hulk (19...And - sorry! - one further point on Space Hulk (1989): although its combat system is fixed (genestealers roll three dice in melee, marines roll one die, etc.), it is essentially a fully formed advantage system. The basic combat system for shooting or hand-to-hand fighting, is "roll dice and kill on any six". Regular marines roll two dice when shooting.<br /><br />But when it comes to hand-to-hand combat, genestealers have a great *advantage* and so roll *three dice*, taking the best. Marines are *disadvantaged* in close combat and so roll just one die. <br /><br />So, if we look at the standard shooting attack as the basis of combat in the game, we can see close combat as an advantage/disadvantage extension of that. Advantage works in exactly the same way as 5e D&D whereas disadvantage works differently, because rather than taking the worst result (as in Blood Bowl), you lose a die from the base pool of two.JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-54908913929457208372021-09-21T02:18:05.042-07:002021-09-21T02:18:05.042-07:00And - one more thing - if we can see fully fledged...And - one more thing - if we can see fully fledged advantage/disadvantage in third-edition Blood Bowl (1994), there's a "take the best" dice-pool mechanic in Space Hulk (1989). When a marine shoots, he needs a six on either of two dice. And when a genestealer attacks, it needs a six on one of three dice. That's closer to advantage/disadvantage than Shadowrun, I think, and presumably an ancestor of, or influence on, the later Blood Bowl mechanic.JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-90514933470492355082021-09-21T00:22:38.537-07:002021-09-21T00:22:38.537-07:00Ah - I see I've overstated things by eight yea...Ah - I see I've overstated things by eight years: the blitzing and blocking dice came in in 1994 with the third edition - so it was only 20 years ahead of 5e. Still, the point stands.JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-66520408688149734722021-09-21T00:19:10.164-07:002021-09-21T00:19:10.164-07:00Interesting post as ever. I think there may be a s...Interesting post as ever. I think there may be a significant missing element, though: Jervis Johnson's Blood Bowl (1986). That game uses a fully formed advantage/disadvantage mechanism for blocking and blitzing. If the attacker has a higher strength score than the other in such situations, that character's player rolls two dice and picks the best. If the attacker is weaker than the defender, the attacking player rolls two dice and the defending player picks the most favourable. And if one figure's strength is double the other, the best (or worst) of three dice is picked. <br /><br />Blood Bowl uses dice with symbols for different outcomes, so in these situations, the 'best' outcome may vary (knocking a player down versus pushing him into the crowd, and so on). But the mechanism is fully developed 28 years before 5e.<br /><br />As you know, Games Workshop was an RPG company back then, which led to plenty of crossover between RPGs and miniature games. Blood Bowl also had a tremendous following - so much so that the game was kept alive throughout the long period when it was out of production. It's certainly been a big influence on other miniature wargames. One might note that GW tends to keep its 'perfect' game designs - such as Blood Bowl and Space Hulk - out of production for long periods - presumably because they can't be used to sell new miniatures in the way that its more open-ended wargames can.<br /><br />The thread you identify linking Tunnels and Trolls and The Fantasy Trip is interesting. I've seen the kinship between the games expressed in a couple of places, and I think Steve Jackson was involved in some early T&T products. The two games also shared an illustrator in Liz Danforth. <br /><br />One thing that's struck me as an enticing possibility is a combined T&T/TFT game, in which mass or general combats are resolved using T&T's rules and particularly important or tactical fights use TFT's hexes. I'm not sure how one would go about synching the systems and carrying over the attrition from one to the other (perhaps using TFT's weapon stats throughout would be a start), but there might be something there ...JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2246037824413568064.post-23190767825208608832021-09-20T20:33:33.567-07:002021-09-20T20:33:33.567-07:00The idea of rolling several dice and dropping one ...The idea of rolling several dice and dropping one to find a total shows up in AD&D in the <i>Dungeon Master's Guide</i> (published 1979), as a method of generating character statistics. Also, the idea of rolling two dice and taking the higher shows up in <i>Magic Realm</i> (also first published 1979) as a method for determining almost all results, though it can be affected by special abilities, magic items or spells, and so on, usually by one or more of: a) rolling one die instead of two, b) controlling the result of one die, or c) adding or subtracting 1 from the higher die result.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.com